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[08:37:00] ds.tihonov is now дома! :)
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[09:48:56] MAVr is now — Уважаемые пассажиры! Убедительно просим вас не аплодировать экипажу до полной остановки самолета. Спасибо!
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[12:19:54] tvorzasp is now сколько RoR на PHP не портируй, все равно Codeigniter получается
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[12:24:06] aries.ua: Итак, сегодня начитаю делать свое казино с блекджеком и шлюхами. А точнее управление пользователями и правами на фласке, а админка на ExtJS
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[12:34:20] gigimon: aries.ua: почему extjs? а не jquery ui?
[12:34:39] gigimon: у нас тут большой проект пишется на extjs, каждый день маты от js'ников слышу
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[12:34:59] gigimon: это при условии, что у нас премиум extjs и мгновенный (практически) отклик от разработчиков
[12:35:02] aries.ua: Мне нравится, да и удобно
[12:35:24] gigimon: казино для себя пишешь или заказ?
[12:35:38] gigimon: если для себя, то just for fun или хочешь раскрутить и бабло?
[12:35:58] aries.ua: я уже писал большой проект на ExtJS - по началу было сложно - не спорю. Но уже привык и даже стало нравится :)
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[12:36:34] aries.ua: нет, это проект. Но стартует через месяц. Хочу пока не спеша сделать основу.
[12:36:45] aries.ua: Управление юзерами и группами.
[12:36:52] aries.ua: авторизация
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[12:37:01] aries.ua: ну и костяк админки
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[12:37:45] gigimon: понятно
[12:37:46] gigimon: молодец
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[12:39:29] aries.ua: посмотрел, чего-то вменяемого, как у джанги, для фласка и нету. Каждый сам делает лисапед.
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[12:39:55] aries.ua: Потом выложу на на гит исходники для этих модулей. Авос кому сгодится.
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[13:16:49] aries.ua: маки маки... хренов аппл. У меня никогда так часто линуха не падала с синим экраном, как гребаный мак!
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[13:24:01] aries.ua: хотя... какой нахрен синий экран в линухе то :D ну и написал!
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[13:28:38] webninja: work niggers the sun is still high
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[14:00:18] Tony: во по flask вопрос, кто изолировал шаблоны внутри блюпринтов?
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[14:00:31] Tony: а то допустим два разных блюпринта у каждого свой путь и свой index.html - темплейт
[14:00:43] Tony: а оно берет только тот что первый вне зависимости от блюпринта
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[17:37:10] xa4a: aries.ua: а ты не думал взять джангу?
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[17:38:18] aries.ua: xa4a: 5 миллионов кастомеров плюс по каждому кастомеру будут больше 1000 записей.
я думаю, джанга не справится
[17:39:01] webninja is now dnd
[17:39:03] Tony: эээ
[17:39:07] xa4a: странно ты думаешь
[17:39:11] xa4a: чего джанге-то справляться?
[17:39:12] Tony: а как это от django зависит?
[17:39:22] webninja: ага
[17:39:29] xa4a: ты же не будешь 5млн рендерить джанго-шаблонами
[17:39:33] webninja: во фласке глобал реквест например
[17:39:58] webninja: так что большой вопрос что будет быстрее фласк или жанга на реальных проектах.
[17:40:08] Tony: еще flask полностью wsgi
[17:40:13] Tony: что быстрее тоже большой вопрос
[17:41:30] aries.ua: я думал над этим вопросом. Изначально была мысль юзать джангу.
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[17:42:01] aries.ua: но все таки, отдал предпочтение фласку
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[17:43:21] xa4a: похоже на NIH syndrome
[17:43:46] aries.ua: че за синдром такой?
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[17:45:00] aries.ua: кстати, всегда думал, что фласк быстрее джанги
[17:45:03] xa4a: синдром изобретения своих велсипедов
[17:45:07] Tony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here
[17:45:15] Tony: заблуждение )
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[17:45:33] Tony: у меня сейчас проект на pyramid который бы идеально лег на django
[17:45:38] xa4a: aries.ua: так не бывает, что быстрее и всё. всё зависит от конкретных задач и криворукости программистов
[17:45:47] aries.ua: джанга нормально вызывает хранимые процедуры?
[17:45:49] xa4a: вот шаблоны в джанге тормозные
[17:45:51] Tony: зато там sqlalchemy в ней left join можно сделать прямо в коде охуенчик...
[17:46:14] Tony: aries.ua, а flask нормально вызывает? ну некорректно же это )
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[17:46:26] aries.ua: скульалфимия был один из важных аспектов выбора
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[17:47:05] aries.ua: пофиг на корректность - главное скорость
[17:47:19] xa4a: в джанге, насколько помню, толькo raw_sql для этого. но строить логику на хранимых процедурах - я бы сказал, что изначально проблема в этом)
[17:47:27] aries.ua: скорость работы с базой - самый главный аспект.
[17:47:28] best is now dnd
[17:47:32] best is now online
[17:47:38] xa4a: >_<
[17:47:39] Tony: xa4a, +1 никогда не видел чтобы хранимки без особых геморроев поддерживались
[17:47:53] aries.ua: вы правы, но иногда надо
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[17:48:00] xa4a: aries.ua: ты же понимаешь, что 90% времени работы с базой - это хождение по сети и обработка запроса в СУБД?
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[17:48:28] xa4a: не зависимо от django/flask/MySQLDb
[17:48:30] Tony: угу, а sqlalchemy часто бывает либой-детектором юных гиков-геморроискателей
[17:48:34] xa4a: кроме, может, мемкеша
[17:49:50] Tony: бывает глупо, смотришь что люди потерпели явный геморрой чтобы 2-3 запроса не написать вручную, а сделать на уровне кода из-за того sqlalchemy и заодно pyramid и заодно сами пишут все админки, и все потому что чуваки не решились использовать django как раз по причине этого синдрома.
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[17:50:57] aries.ua: Tony: есть логика в твоих словах
[17:51:27] aries.ua: какие доводы в пользу джанги? Так как я еще не сел писать
[17:51:50] Tony: зависит от проекта
[17:51:52] aries.ua: а то вы зародили зерно сомния
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[17:52:19] Tony: но лучше сделать проект легко поддерживаемым и забить на микрооптимизации
[17:52:23] Tony: django или flask это тебе решать
[17:52:36] Tony: я второй вот использую только там где чисто rest
[17:52:49] Tony: нет админок и никакой contrib из джанги даже близко не нужен
[17:52:53] Tony: вот да тут django не нужна
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[17:53:18] aries.ua: Проект - около 5 миллионов пользователей. Каждый пользователь делает тысячи записей. Обработка этих записей по типу новостной ленты вконтакте.
[17:53:53] Tony: ну это не повод взять flask и выкинуть django
[17:54:05] Tony: так же не повод чтобы сделать наоборот
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[17:54:10] Tony: я бы на твоем месте больше о субд подумал
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[17:54:19] xa4a: я по умолчанию брал бы джангу. фласк бы брал, если какой-то простой скрипт, для которого лениво писать модели, сеттинги итд. для асинхронности - брал бы торнадо
[17:54:36] Tony: ибо сдается мне, данные у тебя будут разнородными
[17:54:37] py_two is now xa
[17:54:57] Tony: ну я flask использую на чисто rest приложениях
[17:54:59] aries.ua: черт, а утром я так явно представлял как это на фласке буду ваять. А вы почти убедили меня в джанге :D
[17:55:02] Tony: удобней чем джанго выходит
[17:55:15] xa4a: aries.ua: 5 миллионов пользователей - это "пустые" слова. 5 миллионов запросов в час? 5 миллионов записей в бд? 5 миллионов записей в сутки?
[17:55:16] Tony: aries.ua, ты подумай о nosql лучше
[17:55:36] Tony: если так боишься за производительность, будет тебе и расширяемость и масштабируемость
[17:55:38] xa4a: nosql - только если тебе не важна целостность данных
[17:55:47] Tony: и это тоже
[17:55:50] aries.ua: чем он лучше postgres или оракла?
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[17:55:53] Tony: стоит учесть
[17:55:58] Tony: aries.ua, он не лучше и не хуже
[17:56:01] Tony: он просто другой
[17:56:11] aries.ua: я с ним не знаком просто :(
[17:56:17] Tony: самое время познакомиться )
[17:56:20] aries.ua: потому мне сложно оценить
[17:56:36] aries.ua: ок, почитаю и попробую
[17:57:02] Tony: xa4a, кстати про целостность данных, в той же монге просто отсутствуют транзакции, а то что делается в один запрос вполне удовлетворяет условиям целостности данных
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[17:57:18] xa4a: преимущество джанго в том, что там готово большинство из того, что тебе может понадобиться и решено множество граблей, на которые ты наступишь, если будешь сам пилить. если ты идёшь по пути джанго, то тебе, скорее всего, прийдётся допиливать компоненты, но этой работы будет значительно меньше, чем пилить эти компоненты с нуля
[17:57:38] xa4a: Tony: а что с данными происходит, когда память кончается?
[17:58:19] aries.ua is now online
[17:58:21] xa4a: а если крешнется?
[17:59:01] Tony: xa4a, вот в таких условиях не гонял, не знаю.
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[17:59:21] Tony: целостность данных на уровне ошибок кода вполне
[17:59:28] MAVr is now — Уважаемые пассажиры! Убедительно просим вас не аплодировать экипажу до полной остановки самолета. Спасибо!
[17:59:51] xa4a: но в реальном мире-то бывают и ошибки железа, например
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[18:00:31] Tony: бывают конечно
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[18:00:52] Tony: однако если так судить то и с postgres будет грустно если лог транзакций не сработал
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[18:01:39] xa4a: с постгрес не очень знаком, но разве суть лога транзакций не в том, что пока он не сработал, транзакция не считается принятой?
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[18:02:02] aries.ua: в том :)
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[18:02:58] xa4a: ну я с mysql работаю, и могу сказать, что он из коробки работает не плохо, но в реальной жизни коробочный mysql - не очень.
[18:03:08] xa4a: за то есть крутой форк - от гугла 8)
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[18:03:22] xa4a: там патчей кучка для повышения надёжности
[18:03:29] xa4a: типа семи-синхронной репликации
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[18:03:40] xa4a: в результате, гугл хранит деньги в mysql
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[18:07:16] aries.ua: а я последнее время с ораклом работаю :)
[18:07:23] aries.ua: монстрище
[18:07:40] aries.ua: да и скорость... остальное просто курит :)
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[18:09:42] огыешсук: Фанбой?
[18:10:16] xa4a: "монстрище" - это хорошо, или плохо?
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[18:12:07] gigimon: xa4a: ссылку на форк!
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[18:12:24] gigimon: xa4a: монга когда кончается озу начинает писать на диск
[18:12:30] gigimon: редис - падает в кору
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[18:13:22] xa4a: gigimon: http://code.google.com/p/google-mysql/
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[18:13:53] aries.ua: xa4a: это хорошо. Так действительно быстрый. Крайне удобный итд.
[18:14:26] gigimon: aries.ua: nosql, как правильно сказал Tony другой
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[18:14:35] gigimon: и вполне отлично уживается с sql
[18:14:41] gigimon: в своих задачах
[18:14:42] xa4a: о-па, там даже мой комит один есть :D
[18:15:07] gigimon: на сях?)
[18:15:17] xa4a: http://code.google.com/p/google-mysql/source/list?name=mysql-5.1.63%2F04-audit-log последний коммит
[18:15:24] gigimon: я вот у себя храню в редисе количество новых комментов для чуваков
[18:15:27] gigimon: быстро, просто
[18:15:36] gigimon: а на sql это пиздец страшный и тормозной
[18:16:20] gigimon: xa4a: варавва или иванов?
[18:16:32] gigimon: я увы незнаю тебя по имени :)
[18:16:34] xa4a: 1
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[18:22:30] slav0nic: gigimon, а хранить число комментов в sql медленно О_о?
[18:22:58] gigimon: slav0nic: не число
[18:23:10] gigimon: а данные для юзеров, сколько и какие комменты новые
[18:23:23] gigimon: ну может не медленно, но не также легко и просто как в редиске
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[18:44:40] Tony: xa4a, а ну речь если о том что в транзакционных базах проще восстановить целостность базы после крэша, то тут конечно безтранзакционные базы курят в сторонке, с другой стороны в той же mongo - проебанные данные в случае скажем проблем с железом возможны, поломка данных - нет
[18:46:08] xa4a: у нас вот было железо, которое иногда выдавало блоки нулей)
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[18:52:24] xa4a: жесть какая: http://habrahabr.ru/post/163841/
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[18:55:02] Tony: xa4a, я малость не про то, просто почему-то считается что nosql не идет если нужна хоть какая-то целостность данных
[18:55:33] Tony: xa4a, но к примеру, многие вещи делаются нормально, вроде аналога sql update table set x += 1
[18:56:02] Tony: а вот сделать чтобы две и более разных коллекций сработали в одной транзакции уже увы хуй
[18:56:38] xa4a: Tony: nosql подразумевает денормализацию? В случае реляционных данных, которые нельзя развести в совсем независимые деревья при денормализации нужны хорошие транзакции
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[18:57:58] Tony: xa4a, подразумевает, но делать денормализацию нужно с оглядкой на это
[18:58:38] xa4a: т.о. если данные неподходящие, то от nosql один гемор
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[19:00:13] Tony: естественно
[19:00:21] Tony: nosql не панацея
[19:00:55] Tony: многие ноют как не хватает транзакций
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[19:44:36] webninja: ну щаз обычно целый стек юзают, что-то удобно в sql что-то в nosql
[19:44:45] webninja: я щаз проект делаю, там mysql + mongo + redis еще
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[19:52:11] xa4a: webninja: а почему не просто mysql?
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[19:52:53] webninja: не знаю пока. ну вижу в монгу идет часть данных которые более менее риалтайм обрабатываются, клики там всякие, гео.
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[19:53:18] webninja: а в мускуле то что на веб идет. нестройки, формы и т.д. ну тоже много чего.
[19:53:50] xa4a: по-моему, ты обозвал рилтайм то, что наоборот асинхронно обрабатывается
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[19:54:30] webninja: я скорость имел в виду. то что постоянно обновляется.
[19:54:57] webninja: короче не суть ) факт в том, что ноу проблем юзать это все в одной упряжке.
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[21:05:17] Tony: какой смысл монги если есть редис?
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[21:11:26] xa4a: редис точно валится, когда память кончается
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[21:19:13] slav0nic: а монга при скольки гигах базы валится?)
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[23:53:09] webninja: хз сложно сказать, там шардинг же есть, но я не пробовал. есть проекты где по сотне серверов с монгой так что скорее всего все норм.
[23:53:23] webninja: Tony: какой смысл монги если есть редис? <<< монга гарантирует запись?
[23:53:45] webninja: в смысле редис развер гарантирует запись?
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[23:55:42] webninja: пацаны
[23:55:43] webninja: есть логи
[23:55:48] webninja: в определенном формате
[23:55:50] webninja: логов дохуя
[23:55:54] webninja: надо с логов делать выборки
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[23:56:06] webninja: чо делать? может есть уже какие-то штуки для этого?
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[23:58:55] diman12: Привет всем как можно сделать что то вроде vu meter на python
from pyalsa import alsamixer
mixer = alsamixer.Mixer()
mixer.attach()
mixer.load()
e = alsamixer.Element(mixer,'Master Front',0)
def get_vol():
mixer.free()
mixer.load()
return e.get_volume()

вот то что мне скинул друг у меня не работает на ubuntu 11, а на arch работает
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[23:59:32] webninja: alsa стоит то?
[23:59:35] diman12: да